What I'm thinking a Raspberry Pi 6 could solve if they thought about it.

thagrol · Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:31 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:10 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:37 am

thagrol wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:19 am
I wonder how many of the industrial/embedded customers (especially those using CMs with custom carrier boards) would be willing to pay a 5 cent HDMI tax?
Most I would imagine as they are already paying a much higher 'tax' for things they don't need.
I've always assumed the CMs we design into products for our clients didn't have a HDMI tax. There's also no HDMI logo so it would be 15 cents if it had to be paid of course. The CMs are fairly well stripped back to just what one needs for a commercial product.

Dunno about that. AIUI, the signals are there on the CM but it's up to the designer whether or not they're used on the carrier board. Dunno how the licensing works. Do you need to license HDMI in order to use the logo or to use the physical port? I'm guessing the former given the existence of products like this: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5957

hippy · Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:46 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:10 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:37 am

thagrol wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:19 am
I wonder how many of the industrial/embedded customers (especially those using CMs with custom carrier boards) would be willing to pay a 5 cent HDMI tax?
Most I would imagine as they are already paying a much higher 'tax' for things they don't need.
I've always assumed the CMs we design into products for our clients didn't have a HDMI tax. There's also no HDMI logo so it would be 15 cents if it had to be paid of course. The CMs are fairly well stripped back to just what one needs for a commercial product.

True. But Compute Modules do have a Hirose/Amphenol Connector 'tax'. Something now removed from the CM0 though not available to those outside China.

There would also seem to be a 'tax' by way of licensing the Proant embedded antenna when that's not used. And that appears to be present even when the radio module is not fitted. Though not on the Chinese-only CM0.

There do seem to be quite a few commercial ventures using Pi SBC in their products rather than Compute Modules who do have to pay 'taxes' for things they don't need, don't use. Same too for home users, hobbyists and makers.

I would like access to Pi 400, 500 and 500+ motherboards - 600 when that arrives, but the only way to get those is to pay the keyboard and case 'tax'.

W. H. Heydt · Mon Apr 27, 2026 2:13 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:06 am

jamesh wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 9:31 am
5cents, multiplied by 5M or more, is a lot of cents. I'm not saying that is the reason, but you do need to consider the volume of stuff being manufactured. Getting the BOM price down as far as possible is vital to keep overall prices down.
Yes of course. But the actual cost of ownership of a Pi is higher to the end user as they have to buy special cables or convertors. Almost every house has spare full size HDMI cables lying around, but not micro-HDMI.

Until I started using Pis (2012), I didn't have any HDMI cables at all, as none of my equipment at the time used HDMI.

MikeDB · Mon Apr 27, 2026 2:28 pm

thagrol wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:31 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 12:10 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 11:37 am

Most I would imagine as they are already paying a much higher 'tax' for things they don't need.
I've always assumed the CMs we design into products for our clients didn't have a HDMI tax. There's also no HDMI logo so it would be 15 cents if it had to be paid of course. The CMs are fairly well stripped back to just what one needs for a commercial product.

Dunno about that. AIUI, the signals are there on the CM but it's up to the designer whether or not they're used on the carrier board. Dunno how the licensing works. Do you need to license HDMI in order to use the logo or to use the physical port? I'm guessing the former given the existence of products like this: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5957

If you have an active HDMI socket it's 5 cents tax per item, 15 cents if you leave off the HDMI logo.

bensimmo · Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm

I think you're thinking to much in your bubble about large HDMI.

People don't have HDMI cables lying around.

TVs don't need them. They don't come with them.
Dongles plug directly in to them for FireTV or Google TV, but most just use built in SMART functions.
Unless they had a DVD players they will not have one, they are long gone now.

Laptops/Computers can use USB-C or Display Port in general, all recent PCs have been DP for a long time now. HDMI is an additional or legacy port, along with the VGA port

Seeing loads of student who don't know what they are speaks volumes. We lend them when needed, if they need it for something specific.
So most would be buying anyway, it is only the oldy techy people like us that have loads of HDMI lying around, even then I now have access to loads more micro HDMI than HDMI.

Only things like consoles, soundbar come with HDMI cables now as they are aimed at TVs.

KeithMck · Mon Apr 27, 2026 5:59 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm
I think you're thinking to much in your bubble about large HDMI.

People don't have HDMI cables lying around.

TVs don't need them. They don't come with them.

I have a dozen or so HDMI cables in different lengths.

My TVs both have them for input.

Laptops/Computers can use USB-C or Display Port in general, all recent PCs have been DP for a long time now. HDMI is an additional or legacy port, along with the VGA port

Most of my laptops can't!

But, I do have a few USFF computers with DP, but my monitors have HDMI & VGA ports only, so I have to use DP to HDMI converter cables with them.

bensimmo · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:11 pm

KeithMck wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 5:59 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm
I think you're thinking to much in your bubble about large HDMI.

People don't have HDMI cables lying around.

TVs don't need them. They don't come with them.
I have a dozen or so HDMI cables in different lengths.

My TVs both have them for input.

Laptops/Computers can use USB-C or Display Port in general, all recent PCs have been DP for a long time now. HDMI is an additional or legacy port, along with the VGA port
Most of my laptops can't!

But, I do have a few USFF computers with DP, but my monitors have HDMI & VGA ports only, so I have to use DP to HDMI converter cables with them.

But we're techy people that keep using these things.

hippy · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:16 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm
I think you're thinking to much in your bubble about large HDMI.

People don't have HDMI cables lying around.

TVs don't need them.

Maybe my view that almost everyone has at least one HDMI cable attached to their TV which they had to buy is out-dated. Nothing I have bought or acquired, except a Sky Satellite Receiver and Chromecast, came with a HDMI lead. All the HDMI selector switches I have, HDMI to DVI adapters, HDMI to VGA and HDMI to SCART convertors, HDMI Extenders, active and passive, HDMI Splitters, expect full-size HDMI. Everything I have which uses HDMI uses full-size HDMI, except Pi.

I can accept that many, maybe most, don't have HDMI cables lying around. I expect they have even fewer Mini-HDMI or Micro-HDMI cables lying around. And it's not so easy to pop into Poundland or similar to pick one up for $1 or £1 including VAT which are usually good enough when you need to buy one.

Bottom line for me is, you do need to find an HDMI cable to use with a Pi if you want to view video output, and what that will plug into will usually be full-size HDMI. If you don't mind throwing money around and can order cheaply on-line that's not a problem. But it is for some people.

hippy · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:34 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm
it is only the oldy techy people like us that have loads of HDMI lying around, even then I now have access to loads more micro HDMI than HDMI.

That raises interesting questions as to who the Pi is aimed at, who is actually using it, and what for ?

Even though Raspberry Pi are moving towards being the 'PC Company' Eben has always wanted Raspberry Pi to be I would have still expected a large number of those purchasing would be techies. I'll have to take your word for it that students don't even know what HDMI is, even though I find it surprising. How do they cope when they find they need to use HDMI to use a Pi with a monitor ?

I personally have more full-size HDMI cables than I could quickly find or count. Until recently I had more Mini-HDMI than Micro-HDMI - That was my fault for buying bulk when I mistakenly thought Raspberry Pi were standardising on Mini-HDMI.

MikeDB · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:48 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:34 pm
I'll have to take your word for it that students don't even know what HDMI is, even though I find it surprising.

So do I. How many students don't have a PS/2 or Playstation ? And most have a soundbar with their TVs. And of course HDMI is universal with gaming PCs which many have as well as their laptop which usually does accept a convertor without touching the connector next to it.

bensimmo · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:56 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:16 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 4:40 pm
I think you're thinking to much in your bubble about large HDMI.

People don't have HDMI cables lying around.

TVs don't need them.
Maybe my view that almost everyone has at least one HDMI cable attached to their TV which they had to buy is out-dated. Nothing I have bought or acquired, except a Sky Satellite Receiver and Chromecast, came with a HDMI lead. All the HDMI selector switches I have, HDMI to DVI adapters, HDMI to VGA and HDMI to SCART convertors, HDMI Extenders, active and passive, HDMI Splitters, expect full-size HDMI. Everything I have which uses HDMI uses full-size HDMI, except Pi.

I can accept that many, maybe most, don't have HDMI cables lying around. I expect they have even fewer Mini-HDMI or Micro-HDMI cables lying around. And it's not so easy to pop into Poundland or similar to pick one up for $1 or £1 including VAT which are usually good enough when you need to buy one.

Bottom line for me is, you do need to find an HDMI cable to use with a Pi if you want to view video output, and what that will plug into will usually be full-size HDMI. If you don't mind throwing money around and can order cheaply on-line that's not a problem. But it is for some people.

And so for the Pi6 as per title, scrap it all for USB-C video out. And then people can choose with nice RPi branded adaptors hub whatsits.
You going need output if you want it anyway for legacy displays
People have loads of USB-C cable, of course...

bensimmo · Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:59 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:48 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:34 pm
I'll have to take your word for it that students don't even know what HDMI is, even though I find it surprising.
So do I. How many students don't have a PS/2 or Playstation ? And most have a soundbar with their TVs. And of course HDMI is universal with gaming PCs which many have as well as their laptop which usually does accept a convertor without touching the connector next to it.

Few have soundbars with their TVs
Not that many have PS, or XBOX, even, they seem to go for handheld switch/steam deck if they have consoles.

They all just use phones, the odd few have a laptop or PC and this is on Digital/IT/Computing courses,.often quit would ones unless they're into the PC thing.

hippy · Mon Apr 27, 2026 7:26 pm

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:56 pm
And so for the Pi6 as per title, scrap it all for USB-C video out. And then people can choose with nice RPi branded adaptors hub whatsits.
You going need output if you want it anyway for legacy displays

Going forward that's fine but I'll be costing my purchase on what I need if additional components are required and that, for me, would likely make more of a case for not buying rather than doing so.

I am not convinced Raspberry Pi could or would present a business case for doing that but we will have to wait and see. And maybe it will be possible to pick-up second-hand USB-C monitors for $5-$10 when it does get released, or at least be cheaper than the adapters.

bensimmo · Mon Apr 27, 2026 8:02 pm

Personally. I also think it would be a right pain if there is no hdmi, but it's what the kids want and use and they're the future.
And we all know it'll be whatever industry would prefer in reality.

But we've got over it before.

(Though the Zero series should certainly have gone USB-C power connector and microHDMI by now.) That would make life easier. )

And when you consider the a hdmi, PD, USB hub is £9, why should everyone and headless users pay for all the other connectors. (the good old BOM ~~excuse~~ reasoning)
Anker USB C Hub, 5-in-1 USB Hub for Laptops, 4K HDMI Multiport Adapter with 90W Max Power Delivery, USBC & USBA Data Ports USB C Dongle, Compact for MacBook, Dell, and More (Charger Not Included) https://amzn.eu/d/04Ieurpr

MartenMario64 · Mon Apr 27, 2026 10:16 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2026 6:05 pm

MartenMario64 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2026 7:58 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2026 3:51 am

All Pis have HDMI output. Now, I do know what you mean... You want a full-sized HDMI connector instead of the micro-HDMI found on the Pi4 and Pi5 class systems. Are you willing to give up having two HDMI outputs to get that? That's what it would take in order to get have a single, large, HDMI port.

For another solution... I understand that there are cases made that have internal cabling to connect the Pis micro-HDMI ports to full-sized HDMI connectors exposed by the case. If you're having that much trouble with the micro-HDMI ports, why not get yourself such a case (or cases), as needed?
Also, Theres a reason I pointed out the audio socket...
just have two. two hdmi sockets, one that is where the audio socket once was.
So.... Now you want to get rid of the CSI/DSI ports in order to have two full-sized HDMI ports? Is the GPIO block next on your list of disposable connectors?

So, have You thought of any other orientation, Stacking HDMI Ports,
Or Two HDMI Ports That Are Vertical, It Wouldn't Remove Anything.

(EDIT: So, You think that I should switch to a laptop? well I once had one,
it died on a Steam Game (Specficlly GMOD, And Pizza Tower.) And They Run
GREAT On the Raspberry Pi 5 (Well GMOD is ehhh not too great on the Raspberry Pi 5, But Pizza Tower? It runs great (made a installer for it. "https://github.com/martenmario64/Pizza- ... -Raspberry")). Also, have You forgotton the intent of the hardware?
Accessible for everybody? That reality is drifting away, and You're making it worse.)

MikeDB · Tue Apr 28, 2026 1:36 am

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:59 pm

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:48 pm

hippy wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:34 pm
I'll have to take your word for it that students don't even know what HDMI is, even though I find it surprising.
So do I. How many students don't have a PS/2 or Playstation ? And most have a soundbar with their TVs. And of course HDMI is universal with gaming PCs which many have as well as their laptop which usually does accept a convertor without touching the connector next to it.
Few have soundbars with their TVs
Not that many have PS, or XBOX, even, they seem to go for handheld switch/steam deck if they have consoles.

They all just use phones, the odd few have a laptop or PC and this is on Digital/IT/Computing courses,.often quit would ones unless they're into the PC thing.

Maybe not on your side of the Pennines, but all the people I know at Manchester and Salford Unis do. Macbooks are probably most common, but plenty of HP and Dell laptops as well, but there will always be some form of games console as well with a soundbar on the TV in their shared living room.

I even know one guy who has a full F1-type simulator with 6 monitors in his room - that's a lot of HDMI cables

MikeDB · Tue Apr 28, 2026 1:41 am

MartenMario64 wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 10:16 pm
So, have You thought of any other orientation

Been there with the vertical sockets - they break. Or at least the ones JLCPCB supply do. At a minimum they need some sort of plastic support surround BEFORE they get inserted into the outer case which will always have some play on it.

MartenMario64 · Tue Apr 28, 2026 4:33 am

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 1:41 am

MartenMario64 wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 10:16 pm
So, have You thought of any other orientation
Been there with the vertical sockets - they break. Or at least the ones JLCPCB supply do. At a minimum they need some sort of plastic support surround BEFORE they get inserted into the outer case which will always have some play on it.

The Point Is That There's plenty of other ways to make HDMI work, be it just one HDMI Port, or some other layout, cause I mean... its a mockup, of what a solution COULD be.

MikeDB · Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:38 am

MartenMario64 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 4:33 am
The Point Is That There's plenty of other ways to make HDMI work, be it just one HDMI Port, or some other layout, cause I mean... its a mockup, of what a solution COULD be.

Yes I agree. As I said earlier, to me stacked full size connectors is the way to go.

bensimmo · Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:39 am

MikeDB wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 1:36 am

I even know one guy who has a full F1-type simulator with 6 monitors in his room - that's a lot of HDMI cables

Student loans for you, they'll pay that back, maybe, by the time they retire (when it gets written off)

I have 2 F1 rigs in the room next to me at work*. Only one very wide monitor on them though.
You'll probably find the monitor are DP and HDMI as most cards have 3x DP and 1x HDMI, and you can daisy change DPs if the monitors allow.

*That's for E-sports courses and is of course a money pit, but it looks good in the adverts.

andrew_pi · Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:41 am

Got to be aware of our cognitive biases. Especially, in this case, false consensus.

There probably isn’t a general clamour for big clumsy connectors, even though it is your personal preference.

redvli · Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:00 am

andrew_pi wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:41 am
Got to be aware of our cognitive biases. Especially, in this case, false consensus.

There probably isn’t a general clamour for big clumsy connectors, even though it is your personal preference.

Yes good point. There are roughly 7.4 billion smartphones in the world at the moment. And 80 million RPis sold.

For smartphones the touchscreen is what is the HID. The SoC/CPU is where most people have no clue about. There is very short/tight/efficient connection between SoC and screen. Nothing about cables and connectors. It is simply technically 'unnatural' to have the highest demand interface via a long cable with various connectors.

But RPi PCB is about the ARM CPU(s). It is not even an SBC strictly speaking as I consider a computer something that has non-volatile storage included off-the-shelf. The 'S' from Single is rather a contradiction if you need HATs cables adapters etc to make it a usable computer.
Maybe RPL should go a step further and offer a Pi5minus (not a Pi5plus or a Pi5 with D version SoC) so called a 'Pi5m' or 'Pi5-' that is only the BCM2712 with 4 PCIe lines available to the end-user. I mentioned It before in another topic, but I already know it won't happen of course. The fact that it is Broadcom (single source) makes it 'risky business' I think.

andrew_pi · Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:22 am

redvli wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:00 am

andrew_pi wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:41 am
Got to be aware of our cognitive biases. Especially, in this case, false consensus.

There probably isn’t a general clamour for big clumsy connectors, even though it is your personal preference.
Yes good point. There are roughly 7.4 billion smartphones in the world at the moment. And 80 million RPis sold.

For smartphones the touchscreen is what is the HID. The SoC/CPU is where most people have no clue about. There is very short/tight/efficient connection between SoC and screen. Nothing about cables and connectors. It is simply technically 'unnatural' to have the highest demand interface via a long cable with various connectors.

But RPi PCB is about the ARM CPU(s). It is not even an SBC strictly speaking as I consider a computer something that has non-volatile storage included off-the-shelf. The 'S' from Single is rather a contradiction if you need HATs cables adapters etc to make it a usable computer.
Maybe RPL should go a step further and offer a Pi5minus (not a Pi5plus or a Pi5 with D version SoC) so called a 'Pi5m' or 'Pi5-' that is only the BCM2712 with 4 PCIe lines available to the end-user. I mentioned It before in another topic, but I already know it won't happen of course. The fact that it is Broadcom (single source) makes it 'risky business' I think.

We're not going to redefine the computer based on its storage. Maybe you are a youngster but early business "microcomputers" didn't have non volatile storage included off the shelf. They had no HDD, but used floppy disks, including the boot process loaded the OS from a floppy.
Early home computers had even more crude storage than that, like audio cassette.

Nor can we redefine the SBC based on the fact that you can plug in something that it doesn't actually need in order to work. I can plug just a power cable into a Pi Zero W now and it will start up and become a usable web server.

MartenMario64 · Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:40 am

andrew_pi wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2026 6:41 am
Got to be aware of our cognitive biases. Especially, in this case, false consensus.

There probably isn’t a general clamour for big clumsy connectors, even though it is your personal preference.

So, You still really think im talking about this cause its MY issue? Well, its made for
people... who don't have the money to get everything for the pi 5... and You're gonna say
just get a better laptop... You're ruining the original dream of the Raspberry Pi. most
people have HDMI.

(And don't say get a better case, I have a really good case.)

KeithMck · Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:58 am

bensimmo wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2026 6:56 pm
People have loads of USB-C cable, of course...

How wrong can you be, I have only just bought my first one recently......

What I'm thinking a Raspberry Pi 6 could solve if they thought about it.

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